A Place at the Table – Pt. 3 January 27, 2009
Posted by Matt in A Place at the Table.Tags: Bible, Biblical Interpretation, church of christ, idolatry
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I know it has been a few weeks since I last posted on the issues surrounding the role of women (or lack thereof) in the Church of Christ. In that time, there have been several comments both on my first “A Place at the Table” post (the comments were inadvertantly turned off on part 2) and the “Case Against Lads to Leaders” post from before then. In these, several people took the time and space to write out verse-by-verse how they felt about my prior statements – why they were either right or wrong.
Originally, I had it in my mind that I would do something similar and use the Bible to try and make my argument, but, after reading the arguments from both sides another question came to mind, arising like a phoenix from the leftover ash heap in this fight over Biblical interpretation. So, the more I thought about it, the more it plagued my thoughts and the more it affected my writing of this next installment.
So, I have decided that, instead of rambling on and on with my own opinions, I would pose the question to you.
Have we (meaning in my context the “Church of Christ,” but anyone is welcome to comment from their own situation) turned the Bible into our idol? In our zeal for having things exactly right have we elevated the scriptures to an unhealthy level? In our desire to parse each syllable of each word have we turned this volume from antiquity into a golden calf?
Sometimes we miss the purpose of the Bible to change us into being more Christlike, which involves a lot of humility, and involves admitting you don’t have it all figured out. “Being right” also can battle against the unity that Jesus pleaded for in John 17.
Barton Stone, an early leader of the Restoration movement, did not believe a correct set of doctrines would ever unite believers. Instead, he believed in a “fire union,” that the fire of the Holy Spirit would soften and fill hearts with love for each other. See Leonard Allen, Distant Voices, ch. 3.
Stone was on that “other” side of the movement, right?
Matt,
I think you asked a very interesting question. I agree with Ryan that “arguments” often forget what the bible is for. i.e. becoming more Christ-like and telling the story of God’s interaction with mankind (used in the broadest possible sense). It seems to me that the desire to control someone else (determining what the bible says, controlling government, controlling business, dominating a family, etc.) could be a base element of the human condition that God does not desire.
My question is where do we draw the line. I am not sure that I could, in good conscience, call a man my brother in Christ who denied His divinity. I have no issues contemplating that we have drawn a line that is truly drawn by God, but are we “condemned” by what we approve too? To what do we anchor? It seems to me that if we “go with the flow” that we are shaped by our society instead of influencing it. Admittedly it shames me that “Christians” have not been more at the forefront of changing some obvious societal wrongs.
This post is a very thought provoking post.
hey matt. i have no idea who you are but a friend of mine passed your blog along. i think i got caught up on your former posts and comments and would love to add to the discussion.
as a former church of christer and former literalistic and fundamentalist christian, i applaud that you even brought up the golden calf question.
most people will live their lives without really asking the tough questions. and i mean asking the questions and be willing to walk away if the answer doesn’t square.
most people ask from a nice comfort zone that allows them to wander but come back. it feels like the went out for a long , treacherous hike but really, they were taking a jog on the treadmill.
long story short, my answer is yes. the bible is an idol.
the bible is an incredible and beautiful and amazing document. but the bible is full of horrible and shameful writ attributed to the breath of god. every page is filled with beauty and every page is filled with fugly.
the book has become an idol and a crutch for those who want to cling to pre-modern beliefs.
it’s not even a book. it’s a collection of ancient writings paired down from many other writings that never made it in the orthodox cannon. these writings come from many. many theological and political perspectives and have no common thread stringing them all along. except that they are all the experiences of people pointing toward god, trying to understand the mysterious.
now, fundamentalists can preform jedi mind tricks and lead you to believe that a series of proof-texts make it all add up. but if you really ask yourself, “Self, does this really make sense?” more times then not. the answer is no.
perhaps i fell asleep the dozen times i read the bible through in a year and missed Deuteronomy 20:13-14 or the literally hundreds of other verses that our modern ears find detestable and horrific. if these words were attributed to a president or dictator we would call him hitler…but since we find them in the bible we call him god.
these writings have the fingerprints of man all over them. can anyone tell me what of these writings could not have come from the mind of man?
like i said. there are beautiful words in here. lots of ancient wisdom that stands the test of time. there are wonderful stories that have great meaning to us today. these themes were true at the time of their writing and still are true today. these stories are true, even if they are not literally true.
but it is magic to christians. a supernatural book leather bound.
but i could be wrong and destined for hell…but oh wait…the jews never believed in an afterlife. crazy, huh.
Thanks for weighing in pat b. That’s a lot to think about.
i think you have a great blog and i enjoy the discussion.
and i just wanted to add a few things.
i believe the story of jesus changes hearts and lives. i have seen it. it still changes mine. to see the life of someone who stood against the imperial forces of his day. the powerful. the religious. the state. it is truly amazing and inspiring.
i draw no lines with regard to “who is my brother”. we all struggle and share in this human toil. we all have various perspectives and experiences that shape our lives. we all have a specific lens with which we see this world. i hope to inspire those who embrace fear and hate and a tribal mentality and i embrace and call my brother anyone who strives to love and forgive and show grace to the least of these. not just those who Intellectually conceptualize the belief about a historical person or event.
The Bible an idol??????? Has me scratching my head……
if it is truly divinely inspired,thenit cannot be an idol right? but if not….well then…..hmmmmmm
who says it is divinely inspired? what does that mean anyway. it could mean a tons of things. it could mean that people were inspired by how they interpreted the idea of god at work around them. kinda like max lucado. ok. sorry. bad example.
“all scripture is god-breathed” refers to what was then hebrew scripture at the time.
so everyone is free to take it out of context and apply it to all the writings cannonized in 325 at the council of nicaea? that is really convenient.
you know who gets screwed? all those who really liked the “Shepherd of Hermas” and “Tobit”. really great reads.
the bible is an idol if you worship at its feet and defend it even when parts of it should be called dead wrong.
Pat B– Thank you for stopping by. I also used to be rather fundamental in my beliefs– until I sat down and read (really, really read) the Bible all the way through. I’ve come to think that the majority of folks who believe the Bible is inerrant have never read it from cover-to-cover.
When I finally threw up my hands and said, “I don’t know! I don’t know how to make all the dots of the Bible connect! I just know the life and calling of Jesus.” It was so freeing! I never felt more myself or closer to God than I did at that moment.
I’ve avoided commenting much since the first few comments I made b/c I’m tired of banging my head against the wall with people who still think the dots of the Bible all connect nicely and consistently. It’s hard for me to argue with folks “based on scripture” b/c we both can find verses that appear to back our beliefs.
So, thanks Pat B. I always appreciate finding a fellow soul who can admit they don’t have it all figured out.
I’m a little confused. If the Bible is a “collection of…the experiences of people pointing toward god, trying to understand the mysterious.” , then is the Bible any different from the Qur’an, the Bhagavad Gita, the stories of the Greek, Norse, or Egyptian pantheons, any science textbook, or Aesop’s Fables? Or is it any different from them?
Matt i continue to love your blog. It is great to read your thoughts and the comments of others. I hope we all keep searching for truth and love and never stop asking tough questions. Many questions you ask are hard to find a definitive answer on…which challenges me and i love it! Keep it up. I love you all.
JWisdom,
That is the question I’m trying to answer. If the Bible is not “God-breathed” then it is no different than any other holy book for any other religion. If that is the case (pardon my logical path here) then why be a Christian? What does it mean to be a Christian? Is there even a God? Is there more than one God? I don’t have everything figured out by any means and would not want to make that claim ever, but I am distressed that it seems we want to define God instead of anchoring ourselves to Him (whatever that means).
Matt, you’ve done it again. This one will provoke a lot of comments I think.
Does it matter if the entire Bible was not written by the hand of God, Himself? Does it matter if it is not all “true,”: according to our modern definition of the word? Does it matter if it is not perfect?
Matt, I think the answer is possibly yes. I remember being in a class with you in which I mentioned something in the bible regarding non-pacifism and the comment was that if my perspective was the case, then you could just toss out the whole thing. If some of it is true to you and not to me and vice versa, then isn’t the whole thing false and we can just throw it out as a good book, but not one that has any more meaning than any other book written in human history. I haven’t worked through your proposition, so I said “possibly yes”, not “yes”.
R-Liz – i know. i felt the same way when i was honest with myself and really followed my head and heart. i’ve never been so free to experience the mystery that is god. i can answer “i don’t know” and not live in fear.
Jwisdom – the bible has beautiful words and crappy words just like all of the books/ideas you mentioned.
when deut 5:21 commands us to not covet.
we say “based on experience, we live better and more meaningful lives when we follow this”. for the most part, people regardless of religion or non-religion, think this is a positive and good idea and therefore try to live their lives this way.
well, within the same verse, supposedly given by the hand of god to moses, we see women lumped into the same category as property, not coveting another man’s belongings.
well, the ancient world believed that women were property and belonged to their father or when a dowry was paid, to their husband. of course we see these prejudices in their writing.
it has taken thousands of years for society to move beyond this crazy idea. (and in some cultures to this day, those have have not moved past their own religious fundamentalism, they throw acid on school girls faces and stone those without a head covering.)
but did god really write this? was an inhuman way of looking at people really codified in these laws? the hebrew and christian scriptures are filled with these ideas. but do we defend them as god inspired? for me, the answer in no. you many have another answer and i would love to hear your thoughts.
society takes the good from these books and hopefully lets the rest fall to the floor. slavery was another built in prejudice. and i know that there are others.
if the bible is not from the mouth of god…why do we have to ask all these questions about throwing it all out and thinking it’s all false and all a big lie. how is that logical reasoning?
it isn’t.
it says to me, that for some, the bible really IS an idol and their whole life is based on a premise that a book is supernatural and magical. sounds like christianity has built a huge fortress on a single premise and now the whole wall comes tumbling down. so the idea that the bible is from the mind of god HAS to be propped up and defended at all costs. lest the godless atheists and the stay-puft marshmellow man breaks down the wall and comes to get you.
the bible is true, even if it isn’t literally true. we should take the bible seriously, even if we don’t take it literally.
the bible is humanities hand pointing toward god. the voice of thousands of people who chose life. who chose goodness and mercy and love. that is so freaking amazing. we have their words their ancient struggles to live this life. the same life we are trying to live. we need to listen to their message and love one another. we need to live self-sacrificing lives that honor god and honor each other. we need to stop focusing on some unknown afterlife and start focusing on THIS life.
ok. i said too much. sorry.
That doesn’t really answer my question. I’m familiar with the problems, what I’m wondering is: Is the Bible special among all other stories that hold some truth for humanity, is it equal with them, or is it less than them?
hey jwis. it would be great if you could comment on my other posts…4,6,8 and more recently 15 and 17. i think i sorta did answer your question. but if i hear your thoughts maybe i can better understand your question.
and i can guarantee whatever i have to say is not from the mind of god. it’s just the world as best as i can remember it.
(am i posting too much???)
pat b– I don’t think you’re posting too much. What you’ve been saying rings very true for me. Please keep going.
pat b
Sorry. Post 16 hadn’t shown up when I typed my last comment.
I’m not really trying to get across something I believe or contradict what anyone on here is saying. I’m just trying to understand your point of view. Let me see if I have a grasp on it, and please correct me if I’ve misinterpreted something:
The books of the Bible are true in that, they are truly the authors’ attempts to understand the divine. It holds some truth for humanity, much like other books and stories. In fact it could be considered the Christian Mythology (or I guess a combination of Jewish and Christian mythologies). Any transformative power from scripture comes from the amazing stories that inspire us to be better people and live lives that better humanity as a whole.
Is that close?
actually, jwis….i was asking for your thoughts. what do you think?
sounds nice and fluffy but I have to hope there is something more substantial out there than that
Good discussion. I just finished a book by Scott McKnight: “The Blue Parakeet”—it is pretty good—brings up some good questions about how we read the Bible and also how we pick and choose.
Can the Bible be an idol? Yes. I’m not really sure how there can be any debate otherwise. Go ask folks down at your local CoC—“are we supposed to follow the Bible?” I’m guessing the vast majority will answer in the affirmative. But there is a huge difference between following Jesus and following the Bible. The bronze serpent was inspired—it became an idol.
That term “God-breathed” is a great term—it takes us back to Adam—and God breathing into him (as he does us all). Things hardly turned out clear cut in that story at the beginning of Genesis. The perfect humans (dare I call them inerrant?) were corrupted but they still carried the image of God. It was in such murky circumstances that the OT plays out. I wonder if those OT Scriptures referred to in Timothy are similarly murky—a broken, muddy world with God’s breath blowing through.
We seem far more interested in ‘perfect’ than God seems to be. We still suffer from our Greek philosophy hangover. God seems to revel in imperfection—taking joy in the mingling of the message and the mess.
hey brian pannell.
instead of calling what i have to say fluffy. maybe it would be more constructive if you specifically commented on things i said in posts 4,6,8,15 and 16. i would love to hear your thoughts.
it’s really easy to bring other down with very generic comments instead of rolling up your sleeves and getting into details.
do you have any details to share with the group?
Most of the time when working with Africans who are looking to Christ for meaning and direction in their lives, I turn to places in their lives and my own life first to point them to God’s workmanship. Honestly I very rarely quote or read scripture since most of them are illiterate anyway. I guess that would be a good question to ask now. What about people who have genuine faith but cannot quote nor even read scripture. What about people who do not even have the scriptures in their own language?
no details for you mr brandimore
I have another question. If we don’t accept the Bible as God’s message to man but as mans’ attempts to understand God, then how do we know when the authors’ got it right and when they got it wrong?
And really, I’m just asking these questions because I want to understand this mindset. If I just write what I believe about the Bible, and we disagree, this will just devolve into trying to pick apart each others comments. I don’t really want to debate, just understand better.
jwis – do you think the author of deut 5:21 got it right when he called women property? what about the thoughts expressed in deut 20:13-14?
I cannot believe that is god’s message. 5:21 doesn’t sound like a perfect law. it sounds like something a pre-modern man would write. there are hundreds of things that sound similar.
i would love to understand your mindset. i think i have written quite a bit about what i believe. as of yet, no one has commented on the specific issues i raised.
i think looking at these specific examples will better set up a more general discussion.
thanks
jwis…if you pass along your email address. i would love to discuss further.
But what if someone did believe that was God’s message? What makes their point of view less legitimate? I guess what I need to know is: Is there any standard for what is true and what isn’t? If the answer is no, then can believing in a loving and merciful god be more correct than believing in a god that wants Christians to march on the Holy Land and reclaim it by force, or a god that says slavery is OK and women can be property, or multiple gods, or just believing in the power of the human spirit? If the answer is yes, then what is it?
the ancient jews did believe that was a part of god’s message. they thought women were property and under the authority of man and the law supported that belief.
they also thought that god supported their conquer of foreign people. when they were good. god gave them victory. when they were bad. god allowed them to be defeated. a very primitive reward/punishment motif.
they thought a lot of things that our modern ears find horrible. many of those things were written into the law.
if we view these writings literally. from the hand and mind of god. then we devalue the very essence of god. the mystery of god. the god that we see so strikingly in jesus.
so i guess if you are asking for a standard of what is true or what isn’t…all i can point you to is jesus.
I really appreciate what you are saying pat. I wrote something similar several weeks ago after we did a study of the book of Joshua at our congregation. In that entry I questioned the idea that God would order his people to rampage through opposing cities, killing not only those in the enemy army, but also the women and children (as well as the animals, for that matter).
You can read what I said here:
http://mattwisdom.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/god-on-our-side/
One point to keep in mind with respect to scripture (both old and new), there is a big difference between literal and intent. The question raised was “do you think the author of deut 5:21 got it right when he called women property?” With respect to the principle being taught to people who believed women were property, Yes. The point of the passage was not to state that women were property, it was to state that they were not to covet. There are many things said in both OT and NT that if we ignore the principle being taught, we can come up with really scary ideas. Even worse is the fact that CoC has always taught the NT letters like they are law. If that were truly the case, the only women that are saved are saved through giving birth.
So intent on being serious, the sarcasm of Paul about man’s irresponsibility gets lumped into a bogus teaching regarding men’s and women’s roles.
The Bible is a mixture of both God’s interaction with his creation and the created’s interaction and understanding of God. To look at it all one way or the other is to miss the point. The cool thing is, the Bible as written tells us that others are going to see God’s truth without ever even reading the book–Romans chapter 1, since the beginning of time, God has given witness to himself, no man has an excuse. Truth will be encountered in many locations, not to show everyone’s brand of truth to be 100% inspired, but because all truth is of God.
Lastly, to briefly answer the question, has the Bible become and idol, I would have to say, well duh! When we allow anything to rise to the status that it is held above God, then it has become an idol. The Bible as a how-to text that supercedes the truths it contains regarding God is one way that it is treated like an idol by many from many denominations. It is easier to follow a form/format, than it is to actively follow God in a dynamically changing world.
Okay. Then my next question is: How do we know what is true about Jesus?
I also don’t understand how trying to do what the Bible says = raising it above God, IF your intent in trying to do what it says is to please God.
jwis…you silly goose. so full of questions and as of yet, nothing to add to the conversation.
could you please go back and answer just a few of my questions? i would love to continue this conversation but it seems like this would never end.
i have plenty more to say about jesus.
#1 I kind of thought my questions were furthering the conversation.
#2 If you answer my question from post 34, I’ll quit asking questions.
Come on, pat. It is always good to raise more questions.
And let’s remain civil.
Silly goose? I kind of thought his questions were advancing the converstation too. I am very interested in your thoughts on truth and how it can be discerned. You point to Jesus, but JWis has a good question about that too.
I’ll do my best on giving my perspective on 4, 6, 8, 15, and 16, but I’d like to see a response to JWis. Let’s call us all seekers and you have a perspective to which, I for one, have not been exposed. I’d love to hear your comments about Jesus.
sorry guys…just trying to add a little levity to the chat. why so serious?
jwis. i’m not asking you to stop asking questions. i’m asking you to participate so we all can share ideas. it’s no fun when someone else gets to ask all the questions. i have plenty myself.
i love what rich had to say about the mixture of god’s interaction and our searching to understand. very well said. and i fully agree, truth is going to be encountered in many locations.
let me make one further observation.
i love using the example of deut 5:21 because it is very important to the hebrew and christian bible. i mean, come on, it’s one of the great 10 commandments! the verse says so many great things. but the most important thing it says is to not look at what someone else has with a selfish attitude. the anonymous writer of that command was capturing what a tribe…what a community had learned over hundreds and hundreds of years of wandering and struggle and war. it is their shared experience. it is something they saw so important as to set it apart from the rest of the law as sacred.
it is their human experience pointing to the mystery that was yhwh.
for me, i think it cheapens their struggle if i only attribute it to a supernatural deity who took a magic finger and scribbled it on some rocks. i allow for the fact that could have happened. but everything that i know about this world and my own experience says the story of moses was meant to convey how important the law was to the people of israel.
we cannot deny that secondary to the command, we see a very specific way of looking at women. but it is my belief, that to the ancient hearer, it was a construct that was ordained and established by god. so like the rest of the law, it was beautiful and true.
i see both the covet command and the inference of women as property to be both from the mind and hand of man. i do not believe a male deity in any way wrote, co-wrote, whispered or did anything miraculous to create those ideas. i fully believe it was the experience of humanity’s struggle that wrote those words. and as i stated before…it was an ancient people pointing toward god.
pat b seems like a nice guy who wants to do right, and I respect that. I am afraid, however, that his line of reasoning puts the individual reader in the driver’s seat as far as determining what is true rather than the orthodox (some might prefer the word traditional) Christian view that Scripture even with its difficulties and human elements represents a divine revelation of truth from God. If Jeremiah says “Thus says the LORD” and in reality God said no such thing, then he is not a good man seeking to understand God. He is at best delusional and at worst an egomaniacal liar who believes that he is authorized to speak for the Almighty.
Jwis seems like a total tool. Why not just own up to the fact that you hate women!
I only wish I’d been alive when we gave them the vote!
But I hear Jwis’s brother is a pretty cool guy…